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Ultrasounds and retarded fetal growth

LouLou

New member
This is an email to my DH that I thought I'd share with you all about my findings...

Back to what I stated weeks ago, as long as our baby's heartrate is fine, has good fetal movement, and my fundus height is on track I will not be getting anymore ultrasounds to track fetal growth. I will be undergoing ultrasound at every appt. when they use doplar to count the heartrate. I would ask them to use a stethoscope (my right) but I do not think they could get an accurate heartbeat count. This is the lowest level of ultrasound so I'm not too worried about it. When I get checked in to L&D and they do EFM (external fetal monitoring) this is ultrasound. For the count we are up to 5 ultrasounds already. The groups all these links mention for having received large amounts of ultrasounds are 5. I'm guessing one more wouldn't do too much more harm. What's largely done is already done sadly for our little guy but on principal now that I know I won't submit him to this anymore. If you don't go to the links at least read the excerpts below that I have pulled from the various sites.

I read these and other research reports and have concluded the risk/benefit ratio is not worth it.

<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://educate-yourself.org/cn/2001/ultrasoundandbraindamage19dec01.shtml
">http://educate-yourself.org/cn...indamage19dec01.shtml
</a><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.unhinderedliving.com/pultra.html
">http://www.unhinderedliving.com/pultra.html
</a><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.mothering.com/articles/pregnancy_birth/birth_preparation/ultrasound-definition.html
">http://www.mothering.com/artic...sound-definition.html
</a><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/ultrasoundwagner.asp
">http://www.midwiferytoday.com/.../ultrasoundwagner.asp
</a>
Negatives: ...just a few that I've pulled from the above sites.

-retards fetal growth (funny this is IUGR the reason they want to do often scans on my baby)

-the speech-delayed children were about twice as likely to have been exposed to ultrasound than the matched controls.

-Sound is between 20 hertz and 20 kilohertz. Ultrasound waves travel between 2 and 4 megahertz and have been classified by the Bureau of Radiological Health as "radiation."

-unregulated levels - machines don't have to say what level their waves are - World Health Organization is urging something to be done about this. Doctors meanwhile preach that there is "no risk."

-Dr. Mendelsohn wrote, "Ultrasound produces at least two biological effects--heat and a process called 'cavitation' in which bubbles are created that expand and contract in response to sound waves. The first time I saw this cavitation process in action, a chiropractor turned on the therapeutic ultrasound machine in his office and placed a few drops of water on the part of the machine that was applied to the patient. I wish every reader...could have been with me to watch that water suddenly boil and bubble" (The People's Doctor, Vol.7, No. 11, p. 3).

THIS IS THE REASON CFERS GET A LOT OF ULTRASOUNDS:
One of the most common justifications given today for routine ultrasound scanning is to detect intrauterine growth retardation (IUGR). Many clinicians insist that ultrasound is the best method for the identification of this condition. In 1986, a professional review of 83 scientific articles on ultrasound showed that "for intrauterine growth retardation detection, ultrasound should be performed only in a high-risk population." In other words, the hands of an experienced midwife or doctor feeling a pregnant woman's abdomen are as accurate as the ultrasound machine for detecting IUGR. The same conclusion was reached by a study in Sweden comparing repeated measurement of the size of the uterus by a midwife with repeated ultrasonic measurements of the head size of the fetus in 581 pregnancies. The report concludes: "Measurements of uterus size are more effective than ultrasonic measurements for the antenatal diagnosis of intrauterine growth retardation."

If doctors continue to try to detect IUGR with ultrasound, the result will be high false-positive rates. Studies show that even under ideal conditions, such as do not exist in most settings, it is likely that over half of the time a positive IUGR screening test using ultrasound is returned, the test is false, and the pregnancy is in fact normal. The implications of this are great for producing anxiety in the woman and the likelihood of further unnecessary interventions.

There is another problem in screening for IUGR. One of the basic principles of screening is to screen only for conditions for which you can do something. At present, there is no treatment for IUGR, no way to slow up or stop the process of too-slow growth of the fetus and return it to normal. So it is hard to see how screening for IUGR could be expected to improve pregnancy outcome.
 

LouLou

New member
This is an email to my DH that I thought I'd share with you all about my findings...

Back to what I stated weeks ago, as long as our baby's heartrate is fine, has good fetal movement, and my fundus height is on track I will not be getting anymore ultrasounds to track fetal growth. I will be undergoing ultrasound at every appt. when they use doplar to count the heartrate. I would ask them to use a stethoscope (my right) but I do not think they could get an accurate heartbeat count. This is the lowest level of ultrasound so I'm not too worried about it. When I get checked in to L&D and they do EFM (external fetal monitoring) this is ultrasound. For the count we are up to 5 ultrasounds already. The groups all these links mention for having received large amounts of ultrasounds are 5. I'm guessing one more wouldn't do too much more harm. What's largely done is already done sadly for our little guy but on principal now that I know I won't submit him to this anymore. If you don't go to the links at least read the excerpts below that I have pulled from the various sites.

I read these and other research reports and have concluded the risk/benefit ratio is not worth it.

<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://educate-yourself.org/cn/2001/ultrasoundandbraindamage19dec01.shtml
">http://educate-yourself.org/cn...indamage19dec01.shtml
</a><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.unhinderedliving.com/pultra.html
">http://www.unhinderedliving.com/pultra.html
</a><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.mothering.com/articles/pregnancy_birth/birth_preparation/ultrasound-definition.html
">http://www.mothering.com/artic...sound-definition.html
</a><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/ultrasoundwagner.asp
">http://www.midwiferytoday.com/.../ultrasoundwagner.asp
</a>
Negatives: ...just a few that I've pulled from the above sites.

-retards fetal growth (funny this is IUGR the reason they want to do often scans on my baby)

-the speech-delayed children were about twice as likely to have been exposed to ultrasound than the matched controls.

-Sound is between 20 hertz and 20 kilohertz. Ultrasound waves travel between 2 and 4 megahertz and have been classified by the Bureau of Radiological Health as "radiation."

-unregulated levels - machines don't have to say what level their waves are - World Health Organization is urging something to be done about this. Doctors meanwhile preach that there is "no risk."

-Dr. Mendelsohn wrote, "Ultrasound produces at least two biological effects--heat and a process called 'cavitation' in which bubbles are created that expand and contract in response to sound waves. The first time I saw this cavitation process in action, a chiropractor turned on the therapeutic ultrasound machine in his office and placed a few drops of water on the part of the machine that was applied to the patient. I wish every reader...could have been with me to watch that water suddenly boil and bubble" (The People's Doctor, Vol.7, No. 11, p. 3).

THIS IS THE REASON CFERS GET A LOT OF ULTRASOUNDS:
One of the most common justifications given today for routine ultrasound scanning is to detect intrauterine growth retardation (IUGR). Many clinicians insist that ultrasound is the best method for the identification of this condition. In 1986, a professional review of 83 scientific articles on ultrasound showed that "for intrauterine growth retardation detection, ultrasound should be performed only in a high-risk population." In other words, the hands of an experienced midwife or doctor feeling a pregnant woman's abdomen are as accurate as the ultrasound machine for detecting IUGR. The same conclusion was reached by a study in Sweden comparing repeated measurement of the size of the uterus by a midwife with repeated ultrasonic measurements of the head size of the fetus in 581 pregnancies. The report concludes: "Measurements of uterus size are more effective than ultrasonic measurements for the antenatal diagnosis of intrauterine growth retardation."

If doctors continue to try to detect IUGR with ultrasound, the result will be high false-positive rates. Studies show that even under ideal conditions, such as do not exist in most settings, it is likely that over half of the time a positive IUGR screening test using ultrasound is returned, the test is false, and the pregnancy is in fact normal. The implications of this are great for producing anxiety in the woman and the likelihood of further unnecessary interventions.

There is another problem in screening for IUGR. One of the basic principles of screening is to screen only for conditions for which you can do something. At present, there is no treatment for IUGR, no way to slow up or stop the process of too-slow growth of the fetus and return it to normal. So it is hard to see how screening for IUGR could be expected to improve pregnancy outcome.
 

LouLou

New member
This is an email to my DH that I thought I'd share with you all about my findings...

Back to what I stated weeks ago, as long as our baby's heartrate is fine, has good fetal movement, and my fundus height is on track I will not be getting anymore ultrasounds to track fetal growth. I will be undergoing ultrasound at every appt. when they use doplar to count the heartrate. I would ask them to use a stethoscope (my right) but I do not think they could get an accurate heartbeat count. This is the lowest level of ultrasound so I'm not too worried about it. When I get checked in to L&D and they do EFM (external fetal monitoring) this is ultrasound. For the count we are up to 5 ultrasounds already. The groups all these links mention for having received large amounts of ultrasounds are 5. I'm guessing one more wouldn't do too much more harm. What's largely done is already done sadly for our little guy but on principal now that I know I won't submit him to this anymore. If you don't go to the links at least read the excerpts below that I have pulled from the various sites.

I read these and other research reports and have concluded the risk/benefit ratio is not worth it.

<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://educate-yourself.org/cn/2001/ultrasoundandbraindamage19dec01.shtml
">http://educate-yourself.org/cn...indamage19dec01.shtml
</a><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.unhinderedliving.com/pultra.html
">http://www.unhinderedliving.com/pultra.html
</a><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.mothering.com/articles/pregnancy_birth/birth_preparation/ultrasound-definition.html
">http://www.mothering.com/artic...sound-definition.html
</a><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/ultrasoundwagner.asp
">http://www.midwiferytoday.com/.../ultrasoundwagner.asp
</a>
Negatives: ...just a few that I've pulled from the above sites.

-retards fetal growth (funny this is IUGR the reason they want to do often scans on my baby)

-the speech-delayed children were about twice as likely to have been exposed to ultrasound than the matched controls.

-Sound is between 20 hertz and 20 kilohertz. Ultrasound waves travel between 2 and 4 megahertz and have been classified by the Bureau of Radiological Health as "radiation."

-unregulated levels - machines don't have to say what level their waves are - World Health Organization is urging something to be done about this. Doctors meanwhile preach that there is "no risk."

-Dr. Mendelsohn wrote, "Ultrasound produces at least two biological effects--heat and a process called 'cavitation' in which bubbles are created that expand and contract in response to sound waves. The first time I saw this cavitation process in action, a chiropractor turned on the therapeutic ultrasound machine in his office and placed a few drops of water on the part of the machine that was applied to the patient. I wish every reader...could have been with me to watch that water suddenly boil and bubble" (The People's Doctor, Vol.7, No. 11, p. 3).

THIS IS THE REASON CFERS GET A LOT OF ULTRASOUNDS:
One of the most common justifications given today for routine ultrasound scanning is to detect intrauterine growth retardation (IUGR). Many clinicians insist that ultrasound is the best method for the identification of this condition. In 1986, a professional review of 83 scientific articles on ultrasound showed that "for intrauterine growth retardation detection, ultrasound should be performed only in a high-risk population." In other words, the hands of an experienced midwife or doctor feeling a pregnant woman's abdomen are as accurate as the ultrasound machine for detecting IUGR. The same conclusion was reached by a study in Sweden comparing repeated measurement of the size of the uterus by a midwife with repeated ultrasonic measurements of the head size of the fetus in 581 pregnancies. The report concludes: "Measurements of uterus size are more effective than ultrasonic measurements for the antenatal diagnosis of intrauterine growth retardation."

If doctors continue to try to detect IUGR with ultrasound, the result will be high false-positive rates. Studies show that even under ideal conditions, such as do not exist in most settings, it is likely that over half of the time a positive IUGR screening test using ultrasound is returned, the test is false, and the pregnancy is in fact normal. The implications of this are great for producing anxiety in the woman and the likelihood of further unnecessary interventions.

There is another problem in screening for IUGR. One of the basic principles of screening is to screen only for conditions for which you can do something. At present, there is no treatment for IUGR, no way to slow up or stop the process of too-slow growth of the fetus and return it to normal. So it is hard to see how screening for IUGR could be expected to improve pregnancy outcome.
 

julie

New member
This is an on the fence one for me personally. X rays are proven to contribute to cancer too, but many people still have them done when necessary. You have to wonder which one really carries the greater risk. I'd say it all depends on the pregnancy.

The treatment for extreme IUGR is immediate delivery depending on how far along the pregnancy is. I know many babies have been saved because of this earlier delivery.
 

julie

New member
This is an on the fence one for me personally. X rays are proven to contribute to cancer too, but many people still have them done when necessary. You have to wonder which one really carries the greater risk. I'd say it all depends on the pregnancy.

The treatment for extreme IUGR is immediate delivery depending on how far along the pregnancy is. I know many babies have been saved because of this earlier delivery.
 

julie

New member
This is an on the fence one for me personally. X rays are proven to contribute to cancer too, but many people still have them done when necessary. You have to wonder which one really carries the greater risk. I'd say it all depends on the pregnancy.

The treatment for extreme IUGR is immediate delivery depending on how far along the pregnancy is. I know many babies have been saved because of this earlier delivery.
 

wanderlost

New member
Good for you for taking control of your OB care! Repeated scans are NOT necessary if all else is measuring as should be. As far as IUGR, I don't think any CF moms here have had that - yes, we had babies born early (as we've talked about, probably due to maternal nutrition/malabsorption) but all those babies were still born at normal size limits for gestational age and many even better.

I think what it boils down to is that CF moms are still a relatively new thing, and doctors just don't know - therefore they wish to err on the side of caution - which is understandable, BUT not always prudent when all esle looks to be as it should. I think Julie's point about x-rays is good - x-rays can diagnos a lot of ailments and look at lung damage, but I have chosen to stop undergoing yearly chest x-rays because of the danger they pose. I would get one if I was ill and it was needed for diagnosis, but in this day and age, I think yearly chest x-rays for myself are an added risk I do not need to take.

I am really glad that you are so proactive in your care.

Interestingly enough, based on your above info (and I didn't read all your links) I found it interesting that my son was speech delyed and I had quite a few u/s when pregnant (he also had meningitis, so I could never prove any correlation there). But, he speaks just fine and dandy now (and more than enough!), so it really wasn't a big deal.
 

wanderlost

New member
Good for you for taking control of your OB care! Repeated scans are NOT necessary if all else is measuring as should be. As far as IUGR, I don't think any CF moms here have had that - yes, we had babies born early (as we've talked about, probably due to maternal nutrition/malabsorption) but all those babies were still born at normal size limits for gestational age and many even better.

I think what it boils down to is that CF moms are still a relatively new thing, and doctors just don't know - therefore they wish to err on the side of caution - which is understandable, BUT not always prudent when all esle looks to be as it should. I think Julie's point about x-rays is good - x-rays can diagnos a lot of ailments and look at lung damage, but I have chosen to stop undergoing yearly chest x-rays because of the danger they pose. I would get one if I was ill and it was needed for diagnosis, but in this day and age, I think yearly chest x-rays for myself are an added risk I do not need to take.

I am really glad that you are so proactive in your care.

Interestingly enough, based on your above info (and I didn't read all your links) I found it interesting that my son was speech delyed and I had quite a few u/s when pregnant (he also had meningitis, so I could never prove any correlation there). But, he speaks just fine and dandy now (and more than enough!), so it really wasn't a big deal.
 

wanderlost

New member
Good for you for taking control of your OB care! Repeated scans are NOT necessary if all else is measuring as should be. As far as IUGR, I don't think any CF moms here have had that - yes, we had babies born early (as we've talked about, probably due to maternal nutrition/malabsorption) but all those babies were still born at normal size limits for gestational age and many even better.

I think what it boils down to is that CF moms are still a relatively new thing, and doctors just don't know - therefore they wish to err on the side of caution - which is understandable, BUT not always prudent when all esle looks to be as it should. I think Julie's point about x-rays is good - x-rays can diagnos a lot of ailments and look at lung damage, but I have chosen to stop undergoing yearly chest x-rays because of the danger they pose. I would get one if I was ill and it was needed for diagnosis, but in this day and age, I think yearly chest x-rays for myself are an added risk I do not need to take.

I am really glad that you are so proactive in your care.

Interestingly enough, based on your above info (and I didn't read all your links) I found it interesting that my son was speech delyed and I had quite a few u/s when pregnant (he also had meningitis, so I could never prove any correlation there). But, he speaks just fine and dandy now (and more than enough!), so it really wasn't a big deal.
 

tara

New member
I've never been pregnant with a singleton, but coming from a twin mom, I welcomed every single ultrasound. I think every pregnancy is different and every mom has a right to consent or refuse treatment. I personally believe there is no harm with ultrasound.

Tara
 

tara

New member
I've never been pregnant with a singleton, but coming from a twin mom, I welcomed every single ultrasound. I think every pregnancy is different and every mom has a right to consent or refuse treatment. I personally believe there is no harm with ultrasound.

Tara
 

tara

New member
I've never been pregnant with a singleton, but coming from a twin mom, I welcomed every single ultrasound. I think every pregnancy is different and every mom has a right to consent or refuse treatment. I personally believe there is no harm with ultrasound.

Tara
 

becca23

New member
I had only 2 u/s with my girls one at 20 weeks and then one again at about 36 weeks to check and make sure everything was alright. I also had fetal monitoring while on iv'v and that was more to make sure that my uterus was not contracting,which it was. So I do not understand why everyone else is have so many u/s
 

becca23

New member
I had only 2 u/s with my girls one at 20 weeks and then one again at about 36 weeks to check and make sure everything was alright. I also had fetal monitoring while on iv'v and that was more to make sure that my uterus was not contracting,which it was. So I do not understand why everyone else is have so many u/s
 

becca23

New member
I had only 2 u/s with my girls one at 20 weeks and then one again at about 36 weeks to check and make sure everything was alright. I also had fetal monitoring while on iv'v and that was more to make sure that my uterus was not contracting,which it was. So I do not understand why everyone else is have so many u/s
 

LouLou

New member
Great diaglogue everyone. Good points and it's important to realize these are extreme views on the subject. Obviously there are a majority of people that don't see a problem with u/s's or we'd here about this more often. I for one didn't look into it until I 1) saw how adament my MFM group is about doing many. and 2) when a mother I know told me she spotted after each u/s...still not sure what that was all about.

Here's some background on why my group suggests u/s in cf mom's so often. Keep in mind I go to HUP which is considered a top hospital in America. Albeit in a state with one of the highest sue rates. Mother's with cf can compromise the growth of their babies from two aspects: 02 deprivation and lack of proper nutrition. At all growth checks (through u/s) my baby has been approx. in the 50 percentile (53rd at 26 weeks, 43rd at 32 weeks) which is great. The want to continue to monitor his growth to ensure he doesn't drop below the 10 percentile. If he did they would suggest non stress testing where they can see if it is 1) and O2 problem 2) a nutrition problem or 3) just a small baby. If it was 1 or 2 they would suggest either a c-section or induction depending how far along the pregnancy was. The thought is that they could care for the baby better than the human body if problem 1 or 2 was to arise.

Flash forward to me, I'm 5'3" started at 127 lbs. and was 149.5 lbs. on Friday at 32 weeks. 22.5 lbs. - my fundus height is growing always within normal range and I am monitoring fetal kick counts which are normal everyday (at least 10 counts in a 2 hr. period) and his heartbeat has always been normal as well. All of these things make me feel it is unnecessary to do any further u/s. That's my personal opinion and my right.

At 36 weeks (when my next u/s would be if I wasn't declining it), the margin of error is plus/minus 1 lb. I feel it's a slippery slope in which an unnecessary intervention might happen.

I'm glad I've had the close watch but enough is enough. If I'm not having an problems why pursue testing that is potentially dangerous.

Edited to add: my O2 sats were 98 on Friday. Plenty of oxygen for the baby I would think.
 

LouLou

New member
Great diaglogue everyone. Good points and it's important to realize these are extreme views on the subject. Obviously there are a majority of people that don't see a problem with u/s's or we'd here about this more often. I for one didn't look into it until I 1) saw how adament my MFM group is about doing many. and 2) when a mother I know told me she spotted after each u/s...still not sure what that was all about.

Here's some background on why my group suggests u/s in cf mom's so often. Keep in mind I go to HUP which is considered a top hospital in America. Albeit in a state with one of the highest sue rates. Mother's with cf can compromise the growth of their babies from two aspects: 02 deprivation and lack of proper nutrition. At all growth checks (through u/s) my baby has been approx. in the 50 percentile (53rd at 26 weeks, 43rd at 32 weeks) which is great. The want to continue to monitor his growth to ensure he doesn't drop below the 10 percentile. If he did they would suggest non stress testing where they can see if it is 1) and O2 problem 2) a nutrition problem or 3) just a small baby. If it was 1 or 2 they would suggest either a c-section or induction depending how far along the pregnancy was. The thought is that they could care for the baby better than the human body if problem 1 or 2 was to arise.

Flash forward to me, I'm 5'3" started at 127 lbs. and was 149.5 lbs. on Friday at 32 weeks. 22.5 lbs. - my fundus height is growing always within normal range and I am monitoring fetal kick counts which are normal everyday (at least 10 counts in a 2 hr. period) and his heartbeat has always been normal as well. All of these things make me feel it is unnecessary to do any further u/s. That's my personal opinion and my right.

At 36 weeks (when my next u/s would be if I wasn't declining it), the margin of error is plus/minus 1 lb. I feel it's a slippery slope in which an unnecessary intervention might happen.

I'm glad I've had the close watch but enough is enough. If I'm not having an problems why pursue testing that is potentially dangerous.

Edited to add: my O2 sats were 98 on Friday. Plenty of oxygen for the baby I would think.
 
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