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Is this serious to do?

ladybug

New member
Hi,

Is it a serious risk when you skip or miss an occasional colistyn treatment? I wonder if its the same as an IV with an antibiotic where when you miss, you're actually building up a resistance to the effects of the drug, so its pretty serious to do every single treatment on time with IV antibiotics. But, I'm wondering if, when inhaling antibiotics, your body also builds up immunities if you miss or skip a time here and there?

Thanks-
 

Emily65Roses

New member
I heard that that's true with Colistin, but if it makes you feel any better, I miss an occasional dose here or there. And I don't know for sure, it's just what I've heard before.
 

JazzysMom

New member
I have missed doses of meds (aeresol, oral, ivs) occaisionally & overall havent had any problems. There are times that it happens especially the iv's or neb unless you carry everything with you. Ironically I usually miss mine when I go to doctors appointments!
 

julie

New member
Missing any antibiotic can, in theory increase the likelyhood of resistance. It usually won't affect from just one time of missing it. But we all know ourselves and one time leads to two times, then to three times.... So it's a tough call. Just once, I wouldn't worry. But if it's just once or twice every time you are on it, it could definately contribute to a resistance.

This isn't true with non antibiotic meds like pulmozyme, HS, albuterol... just antibiotics.
 

NoExcuses

New member
Miss an antibiotic treatment can lead to resistance - absolutely.

This is why resistance doesn't develop as quickly with medications that are JUST IV form - because docs and nurses admister them and they are less likely to miss a dose than patients who administer PO meds like Augmentin, Zithromax, Ketek, etc.

I would do anything possible to avoid missing a scheduled antibiotic treatment. There are no new antibiotics in the pipeline, so we must do all that we can to preserve the efficacy of the ones that we have!
 

thelizardqueen

New member
I think its only normal that we've all missed a dose here and there. Sometimes you're too tired, or you're out, etc. I've missed the occasional dose with all of my meds, and have yet to build up resistance.
 

ladybug

New member
Hmmm... seems weird to me since inhaling an antibiotic does not enter the bloodstream. I totally understand oral and IV meds needing to be at a constant level, but with things like colistyn and TOBI, we are off these things for a month at a time (which would, in all likelihood lead to nothing but resistance), so I wonder how that fares when you just miss one time in a 28-day course. I'd like to see some literature that has been done on inhaled antibiotics and resistance (if there is any). I just don't really see how that would/could happen. Maybe I just don't want to accept it (this is most likely).

... Although, I was told that even people who are resistant to Tobramycin are often sensitive to TOBI cause it IS a different form (I was a case-in-point when i was on it). So, wouldn't that go against the resistance argument? Hmmmm... I'm confused.
 

NoExcuses

New member
Let me see if I can provide some clarification. I think it's great that you're trying to understand your meds and I think that education can lead to better compliance because you understand why you do the meds that you do. So hat's off to you!

1. Bacteria need to have constant exposure to antibiotics, at adequate killing levels, until they are all dead in order to not induce resistance. PA is an extremely difficult bug to kill - hence CFers with PA being colonized. The theory with TOBI is that patients get flare ups often. Stress, colds, malnurishment, pick you poison. So TOBI is present to make sure that PA flare ups do not occure. If the PA moves from being dormant to being active, the TOBI is present to destroy the flare up. Of course, not all PA is killed. But it is killed to levels that reduce symptoms (and reduce white blood cell counts, inflammation, etc).

So let's say you're in the middle of your 28 day course. Day 14. Day 15 you catch a cold and your PA starts to flare up becuase your body is too busy fighting the cold virus to pay attention to your PA. So PA starts to grow. But no problem - you're on TOBI right now, so your TOBI starts to destroy the PA flare up. Cell, by cell, rod by rod, the PA levels are being reduced do to you inhaling TOBI twice a day. It may take a full 14 days of constant TOBI exposure to ensure that your PA goes down to dormant levels. But you got tired on Day 20 and decided not to do your TOBI that day. So the PA that hasn't yet been killed by the TOBI from days 15-20 now has a chance to grow for a day. These bacteria are "stronger" because they have survived the TOBI exposure for the past 5 days. But over the next 8 days that you're on TOBI, your levels of PA go down enough to where the flare up is under control.

A few months later you catch another cold. Or your stressed. Or whatever the reason. Your PA is flaring up again (as it inevitably always does). But this PA flare up is more virulent this time. Why? Because you skipped a treatment a few months ago and the bugs that were allowed to grow during the day you skipped the treatment multiplied. And now instead of your PA being made up of weaker and stronger parts, it's now mostly stronger parts. It's basically a Darwin's theory of evolution - only the strong survive. The bacteria that is stronger is called a mutation. Bacteria has become smarter to the antibiotic.

So back to your 2nd flare up. It's now harder and takes longer to treat your PA. Perhaps TOBI doesn't work for this flare up and you need IV meds.

Some bacteria take longer to mutate. But more virulent bacteria like PA can mutate more quickly.

Eventually, even if you're compliant with your TOBI every day, you will be resistant. But this will occure more slowly if you take it as prescribed.

2. Being off for a month doesn't lead to resistance. The aim is to reduce PA exposure to these antibiotics so that resistance doesn't occure as quickly. The ultimate goal is to hit the bacteria and hit is hard with an antibiotic for a month. Then, hopefully, the bacteria is at a dormant level. Constant exposure, even at a dormant level, can cause the bacteria to mutate. So taking 28 days off reduces antibiotic exposure and therefore reduces potential to resistance.

3. Inhaled antibiotics aren't any different to PO or IV or IM antibiotics in terms of developing resistance. IV antibiotics tend to develop resistance less frequently because ther is no room for patients to skip doses. Simple as that. I can send you an article from the CDC entitled "dead bugs don't mutate" alluding to the fact that hitting a bacteria hard with high doses of an antibiotic that KILLES (bacterialcidal) as opposed to antibiotics that are static is the way to go.

4. The reason why those who are resistant to Tobramycin are often sensitive to TOBI is because bacteria can be exposed to a higher level of Tobramycin when it's inhaled because there is little systemic exposure. In other words, you can only put so much tobramycin in the blood stream before you kill a patient. You can put much higher levels in the lungs because hardly any of the antibiotic reaches the blood stream.

Keep in mind that resistance is a relative term. If your doc tells you that your PA is resistant to TOBI, this simply means that the levels of Tobramycin that need to be achieved to kill PA can't be acheived because side effects would be too great. It doesn't mean that PA can't be killed by Tobra. It just can't in your body.



Hopefully this helps. If you need any clarification, please let me know.
 

ladybug

New member
Thank you, Amy for the wonderful education! I think I understand most of it. But, what if you have a cold and are off your colistyn month? Are you automatically s*c*r*e*w*e*d cause your PA isn't currently being taken care of by colistyn?

I've never actually NOT cultured the exact same forms of PA (mucoid and non-mucoid). I always culture them high no matter which antibiotics I"m on (be it IV OR colystin month, etc.) I'm also considered sensitive to many IV drugs, but even after being on them for 21-24 days, I still culture the same PA (but PFTs go up and I feel better, so I go off them). What sense does this make?

Thanks again for your great replies. I guess I can't miss anymore treatments! (Actually, I rarely miss any of my nebbed treatments... I just have missed one or two in the past month due to un-clean neb cups. My bad.)
 

JazzysMom

New member
I just need to interject here. I appreciate the feedback Amy on the need to not skip & how the meds work when taking them accordingly or not. BUT given how life in general is I would hate to see people get absolutely freaked out if they miss a dose or two because they are petrified of becoming resistant. Should we be disciplined....yes; should be concerned...yes; should be become paranoid or unrealistic to compliance...no; should be just try out absolute best....yes! IMHO that is all we can do!
 

NoExcuses

New member
True, Mel.

But the harsh reality is that there are no antibiotics in the pipeline for PA. So we must be very careful with the antibiotics that we have on hand now....
 

NoExcuses

New member
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote><i>Originally posted by: <b>ladybug</b></i>
But, what if you have a cold and are off your colistyn month? Are you automatically s*c*r*e*w*e*d cause your PA isn't currently being taken care of by colistyn?

<b>You're not automatically screwed. Some people don't have a flare up with each cold. Some people go on PO antibiotics. Others may need IV's. </b>

I've never actually NOT cultured the exact same forms of PA (mucoid and non-mucoid). I always culture them high no matter which antibiotics I"m on (be it IV OR colystin month, etc.) I'm also considered sensitive to many IV drugs, but even after being on them for 21-24 days, I still culture the same PA (but PFTs go up and I feel better, so I go off them). What sense does this make?

<b> that makes perfect sense. we're all going to always culture PA. it won't go away. but it will lay dormant (low levels) if treated with antibiotics that it's sensitive to. it's difficult to detect "levels" of PA in sputum culture. So like you said, the best measurement is how you are feeling, how your PFT's are doing, and perhaps white blood cell count. </b>


Thanks again for your great replies. I guess I can't miss anymore treatments! (Actually, I rarely miss any of my nebbed treatments... I just have missed one or two in the past month due to un-clean neb cups. My bad.)</end quote></div>

My pleasure for the replies. Like I said - I think it's great that you care to learn about your health. I think the more educated we all are, the better decisions we can make with our health. Then we can all dialogue better with our physicians and ultimately clinical outcomes are improved.

Let me know if I can help with anything else <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0">
 

jfarel

New member
There is a new PA antibiotic in the CF pipeline and it should
be available soon, assuming it continues to be successful. I'm
talking about Aztreonam Lysinate. I know its not technically new,
as it has been used in IV's but it will be new in the form of
inhalation. From what I've read the trials have been successful.
 

catboogie

New member
sonia, if i would have had a category of who is the most curious CFer, i think you would have won. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif" border="0">

laura
 

ladybug

New member
Laura,
Thanks! lol! Sometimes I think I ask silly questions, but the fact is, I really think people on here have great insight and usually give me a great education and great insight! I am extremely curious about this disease and how it effects me and others. I am learning so much more in my "old age" that I now educate family and friends with as well!

Amy,
Thanks again!

Melissa,
I agree that we are all human, and I thank you for your being the sound of logic/reason. I agree 100% (although I do understand the risks I am taking when I miss one or two treatments out of 56). I think we need to do what we can, but not necessarily think we're contributing to our immediate demise when we miss a treatment or two out of 56. I usually do my 56 treatments perfectly every other 28 days. I am very compliant. I don't feel that missing one or two out of 2-3 months' worth will make me very very sick (although, again, Amy, I now understand the risks that I, until now, did not realize came along with inhaled antibiotics).

So, that's how I feel. I appreciate ALL the dialouge regarding my initial question. I deffinately won't look flippantly at doing my inhaled treatments (not that I ever did, but now I will think twice before I even think about missing an antibiotic treatment of any form.)
 

NoExcuses

New member
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote><i>Originally posted by: <b>jfarel</b></i>

There is a new PA antibiotic in the CF pipeline and it should
be available soon, assuming it continues to be successful. I'm
talking about Aztreonam Lysinate. I know its not technically new,
as it has been used in IV's but it will be new in the form of
inhalation. From what I've read the trials have been successful.</end quote></div>

My point was that we must be careful of PA resistance because there will be no new antibiotics. If you take an antibiotic and change its delivery mechanism, this does not address the issue of resistance whatsoever.
 

CowTown

New member
Well I for one have had this thread on my mind ever since it was first posted. This has become a little voice in my mind telling me not to cave in and skip a treatment when I'm too tired and don't want to do it. It's a good thing. I don't want to become resistant! no no. I just close my eyes, get up out of my chair, walk to my treatment stuff and plug in. Once I'm doing it I'm always so happy that I am.
 

sue35

New member
So this I don't understand. I have been doing TOBI every since it came out (I think) and before I knew its importance I skipped it all the time. I probably missed it more than I did it. I have yet to notice any difference. I am not resistant to it but at the same time notice no difference if i miss any of it. Now I do it much more regularly but notice no change. if i get a flare up when on it it never does anything to make it better.

Also, i have been labeled resistant to cipro for years yet my dr. still puts me on it because it works for me. how does that work?
 

NoExcuses

New member
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote><i>Originally posted by: <b>MyNewfy</b></i>

Well I for one have had this thread on my mind ever since it was first posted. This has become a little voice in my mind telling me not to cave in and skip a treatment when I'm too tired and don't want to do it. It's a good thing. I don't want to become resistant! no no. I just close my eyes, get up out of my chair, walk to my treatment stuff and plug in. Once I'm doing it I'm always so happy that I am.</end quote></div>

perfect example of why education improves clinical outcomes! <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0">

yey! we are a bunch of healthy, well educated CFers. WATCH OUT CF!!!!!!
 

NoExcuses

New member
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote><i>Originally posted by: <b>sue35</b></i>

So this I don't understand. I have been doing TOBI every since it came out (I think) and before I knew its importance I skipped it all the time. I probably missed it more than I did it. I have yet to notice any difference. I am not resistant to it but at the same time notice no difference if i miss any of it. Now I do it much more regularly but notice no change. if i get a flare up when on it it never does anything to make it better.



Also, i have been labeled resistant to cipro for years yet my dr. still puts me on it because it works for me. how does that work?</end quote></div>


And this is the weird thing about CF and about bacteria. Every case is different. Some people get resistance quickly, and others slowly. That's why you see such a variance in severity of CF.

Consider yourself lucky, girl.

And if TOBI isn't helping you when you get a flare up, it's probably becuase the infection is hiding below a pile of mucus. TOBI is only effective, obviously, when it can reach the site of an infection. If there is a pile of mucus clogging up the pathway to the infection deep down in your lungs, TOBI can't reach the site of infection. This is where IV antibiotics can be advantageous.
 
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