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F

Faust

New member
Good responses guys, nice to know for the most part we are on the same page of logic heh. What really annoys me is they actually stand out there with their very small children, all holding signs that say things like "DOWN WITH SMUT", or the real annoying one "SAVE OUR CHILDREN", and then give the signs to their little kids to hold. Those kids have no idea what is going on or what the issue is. I'm sure mommy and daddy told her "There is a bad place there, and we don't want it there". I am very cool with civil disobenience, but over stupid stuff like this? People who weigh 500 lbs and still go to buffets and stuff their face all day and then complain that the seats on airplanes are too narrow piss me off, but you don't see me picketing outside of a buffet because it contributes to someones bad health! I could equally come up with many things to picket and show my displeasure with that has 100 times more logical reason for being upset then a bunch of college girls getting paid to strut their stuff because they are young and have hard bodies.


It's a business just like anything else. The college chick goes in there and puts on a bikini (something she would do at the beach also), and serves drinks and food and shows off what god and youth has given her, and guys who are older and appreciate looking at a cute chicks bikini clad body tip them. Meanwhile, we have whole whaling fleet vessels still decimating whale populations in international waters, baby seals being clubbed for no reason besides fashion and the belief that their reproductive organs act as aphrodesiacs, the world loses more and more of it's irreplacable precious old growth forrests/rain forrests on a daily basis, Korea has got nukes and their leader is insane, India and Pakistan are a hair away from probably starting WW3, Urban sprawl in America is out of control and ruining what little character we had regionally, the planet is heating up at an amazing rate which will lead to massive problems very soon (and it's been shown recently), our dependence on petroleum is disgusting and scary, children are exploited and abused every day, people abuse and exploit animals everyday, in some places it's viewed as sport to beat your wife...I could go on all day long with MUCH more important things, that need our energy channeled into to make a real difference for the rest of humanity, so that next generations have a better life.


The other aspect of this that makes me sick is that probably every single dad down there picketing with his chubby soccer mom, has his own private stash of porn somewhere in the house...And yet he trumpets this family values cannon like some shining bastion of morality. If someone later on goes nuts and ends up shooting at these people, I can fully understand why.
 
F

Faust

New member
Good responses guys, nice to know for the most part we are on the same page of logic heh. What really annoys me is they actually stand out there with their very small children, all holding signs that say things like "DOWN WITH SMUT", or the real annoying one "SAVE OUR CHILDREN", and then give the signs to their little kids to hold. Those kids have no idea what is going on or what the issue is. I'm sure mommy and daddy told her "There is a bad place there, and we don't want it there". I am very cool with civil disobenience, but over stupid stuff like this? People who weigh 500 lbs and still go to buffets and stuff their face all day and then complain that the seats on airplanes are too narrow piss me off, but you don't see me picketing outside of a buffet because it contributes to someones bad health! I could equally come up with many things to picket and show my displeasure with that has 100 times more logical reason for being upset then a bunch of college girls getting paid to strut their stuff because they are young and have hard bodies.


It's a business just like anything else. The college chick goes in there and puts on a bikini (something she would do at the beach also), and serves drinks and food and shows off what god and youth has given her, and guys who are older and appreciate looking at a cute chicks bikini clad body tip them. Meanwhile, we have whole whaling fleet vessels still decimating whale populations in international waters, baby seals being clubbed for no reason besides fashion and the belief that their reproductive organs act as aphrodesiacs, the world loses more and more of it's irreplacable precious old growth forrests/rain forrests on a daily basis, Korea has got nukes and their leader is insane, India and Pakistan are a hair away from probably starting WW3, Urban sprawl in America is out of control and ruining what little character we had regionally, the planet is heating up at an amazing rate which will lead to massive problems very soon (and it's been shown recently), our dependence on petroleum is disgusting and scary, children are exploited and abused every day, people abuse and exploit animals everyday, in some places it's viewed as sport to beat your wife...I could go on all day long with MUCH more important things, that need our energy channeled into to make a real difference for the rest of humanity, so that next generations have a better life.


The other aspect of this that makes me sick is that probably every single dad down there picketing with his chubby soccer mom, has his own private stash of porn somewhere in the house...And yet he trumpets this family values cannon like some shining bastion of morality. If someone later on goes nuts and ends up shooting at these people, I can fully understand why.
 
C

CowTown

New member
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>SeanDavis</b></i><br>

It's a business just like anything else. The college chick goes in there and puts on a bikini (something she would do at the beach also), and serves drinks and food and shows off what god and youth has given her, and guys who are older and appreciate looking at a cute chicks bikini clad body tip them. Meanwhile, we have whole whaling fleet vessels still decimating whale populations in international waters, baby seals being clubbed for no reason besides fashion and the belief that their reproductive organs act as aphrodesiacs, the world loses more and more of it's irreplacable precious old growth forrests/rain forrests on a daily basis, ........I could go on all day long with MUCH more important things, that need our energy channeled into to make a real difference for the rest of humanity, so that next generations have a better life.

The other aspect of this that makes me sick is that probably every single dad down there picketing with his chubby soccer mom, has his own private stash of porn somewhere in the house...And yet he trumpets this family values cannon like some shining bastion of morality. If someone later on goes nuts and ends up shooting at these people, I can fully understand why.<hr></blockquote>


Well, I think that eventhough rain forests are vital, animal abuse is horrific, etc, I don't believe devaluing women is any less important. I'm going to keep my mohawk down right now, but I do believe that it is all too easy for guys especially, to group any generality of "oh, a woman's body is so beautiful, god made it, it's pure, it's natural, what's wrong with looking and appreciating the beauty, etc" into a light hearted, unimportant, trivial topic. I personally think the more people try to accept and turn objectification into something silly, trivial, natural and the way of the world, the deeper our culture (or society) get's into trouble with aspects of respecting women, cheating issues, etc. I think that whole concept is a problem that would only be delt with if a woman became president and it is not something to shrug off. Not everyone will get that, and that's fine, but I see it as a mass problem in general, across the world. Your bikini bar situation is just an aspect of the greater issue which is obviously what those protesters are trying to address. Doesn't sound like they're doing a good job, and I think you really have to pick your battles with this issue because it's a cultural thing and far larger than a bikini bar across the street from Sean Davis. My mohwak is down, just so you know. I'm just expressing the other side.
 
C

CowTown

New member
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>SeanDavis</b></i><br>

It's a business just like anything else. The college chick goes in there and puts on a bikini (something she would do at the beach also), and serves drinks and food and shows off what god and youth has given her, and guys who are older and appreciate looking at a cute chicks bikini clad body tip them. Meanwhile, we have whole whaling fleet vessels still decimating whale populations in international waters, baby seals being clubbed for no reason besides fashion and the belief that their reproductive organs act as aphrodesiacs, the world loses more and more of it's irreplacable precious old growth forrests/rain forrests on a daily basis, ........I could go on all day long with MUCH more important things, that need our energy channeled into to make a real difference for the rest of humanity, so that next generations have a better life.

The other aspect of this that makes me sick is that probably every single dad down there picketing with his chubby soccer mom, has his own private stash of porn somewhere in the house...And yet he trumpets this family values cannon like some shining bastion of morality. If someone later on goes nuts and ends up shooting at these people, I can fully understand why.<hr></blockquote>


Well, I think that eventhough rain forests are vital, animal abuse is horrific, etc, I don't believe devaluing women is any less important. I'm going to keep my mohawk down right now, but I do believe that it is all too easy for guys especially, to group any generality of "oh, a woman's body is so beautiful, god made it, it's pure, it's natural, what's wrong with looking and appreciating the beauty, etc" into a light hearted, unimportant, trivial topic. I personally think the more people try to accept and turn objectification into something silly, trivial, natural and the way of the world, the deeper our culture (or society) get's into trouble with aspects of respecting women, cheating issues, etc. I think that whole concept is a problem that would only be delt with if a woman became president and it is not something to shrug off. Not everyone will get that, and that's fine, but I see it as a mass problem in general, across the world. Your bikini bar situation is just an aspect of the greater issue which is obviously what those protesters are trying to address. Doesn't sound like they're doing a good job, and I think you really have to pick your battles with this issue because it's a cultural thing and far larger than a bikini bar across the street from Sean Davis. My mohwak is down, just so you know. I'm just expressing the other side.
 
F

Faust

New member
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>MyNewfy</b></i><br><blockquote>Quote
<hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>SeanDavis</b></i>




It's a business just like anything else. The college chick goes in there and puts on a bikini (something she would do at the beach also), and serves drinks and food and shows off what god and youth has given her, and guys who are older and appreciate looking at a cute chicks bikini clad body tip them. Meanwhile, we have whole whaling fleet vessels still decimating whale populations in international waters, baby seals being clubbed for no reason besides fashion and the belief that their reproductive organs act as aphrodesiacs, the world loses more and more of it's irreplacable precious old growth forrests/rain forrests on a daily basis, ........I could go on all day long with MUCH more important things, that need our energy channeled into to make a real difference for the rest of humanity, so that next generations have a better life.



The other aspect of this that makes me sick is that probably every single dad down there picketing with his chubby soccer mom, has his own private stash of porn somewhere in the house...And yet he trumpets this family values cannon like some shining bastion of morality. If someone later on goes nuts and ends up shooting at these people, I can fully understand why.<hr></blockquote>





Well, I think that eventhough rain forests are vital, animal abuse is horrific, etc, I don't believe devaluing women is any less important. I'm going to keep my mohawk down right now, but I do believe that it is all too easy for guys especially, to group any generality of "oh, a woman's body is so beautiful, god made it, it's pure, it's natural, what's wrong with looking and appreciating the beauty, etc" into a light hearted, unimportant, trivial topic. I personally think the more people try to accept and turn objectification into something silly, trivial, natural and the way of the world, the deeper our culture (or society) get's into trouble with aspects of respecting women, cheating issues, etc. I think that whole concept is a problem that would only be delt with if a woman became president and it is not something to shrug off. Not everyone will get that, and that's fine, but I see it as a mass problem in general, across the world. Your bikini bar situation is just an aspect of the greater issue which is obviously what those protesters are trying to address. Doesn't sound like they're doing a good job, and I think you really have to pick your battles with this issue because it's a cultural thing and far larger than a bikini bar across the street from Sean Davis. My mohwak is down, just so you know. I'm just expressing the other side.<hr></blockquote>


Cool point. Even if I was a female I know for a fact that I would agree that "sex sells". Men are pigs, and are pervs deep down inside. Women can of course be anything they want to be, and I personally don't look at women as only sexual object, I do know they are people with brains and everything in a similar nature to myself (I was raised by all females). But to me, if a woman knows how guys are, and how easily predictable we are, it's a smart woman that uses those gifts to her advantage. That doesn't mean you are selling shy your morals or values, it just means you realize how "the game" is played and you use it to your advantage. I don't go to strip clubs often, maybe once a year on a bachelor party or something, or to remind myself what a different naked woman looks like other than my lady lol. Whenever i'm there are I see these women playing these sucker guys like a fine violin, I laugh and say "Take everything they got ladies". It's similar to having a waiter that knows how to play "the game" for good tips. That waiter would never kiss your read end and pretend what you have to say is funny or interesting out of the environment where they can make silly money off you by doing just that. But the smart server knows how things work, and will get tipped accoringly due to their behavior.

The same thing works for any kind of entertainer, especially when that entertainer is a scantily clad beautiful woman and there are dumb horned up guys all around. To me it's not objectification, to me it's just how life is: Guys are dumb and like looking at hot girls, hot girls notice this and take advantage of us for that and take tons of our cash. If anything, in my opinion, people should be making a point that MEN are being taken advantage of, and not women being objectified.
 
F

Faust

New member
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>MyNewfy</b></i><br><blockquote>Quote
<hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>SeanDavis</b></i>




It's a business just like anything else. The college chick goes in there and puts on a bikini (something she would do at the beach also), and serves drinks and food and shows off what god and youth has given her, and guys who are older and appreciate looking at a cute chicks bikini clad body tip them. Meanwhile, we have whole whaling fleet vessels still decimating whale populations in international waters, baby seals being clubbed for no reason besides fashion and the belief that their reproductive organs act as aphrodesiacs, the world loses more and more of it's irreplacable precious old growth forrests/rain forrests on a daily basis, ........I could go on all day long with MUCH more important things, that need our energy channeled into to make a real difference for the rest of humanity, so that next generations have a better life.



The other aspect of this that makes me sick is that probably every single dad down there picketing with his chubby soccer mom, has his own private stash of porn somewhere in the house...And yet he trumpets this family values cannon like some shining bastion of morality. If someone later on goes nuts and ends up shooting at these people, I can fully understand why.<hr></blockquote>





Well, I think that eventhough rain forests are vital, animal abuse is horrific, etc, I don't believe devaluing women is any less important. I'm going to keep my mohawk down right now, but I do believe that it is all too easy for guys especially, to group any generality of "oh, a woman's body is so beautiful, god made it, it's pure, it's natural, what's wrong with looking and appreciating the beauty, etc" into a light hearted, unimportant, trivial topic. I personally think the more people try to accept and turn objectification into something silly, trivial, natural and the way of the world, the deeper our culture (or society) get's into trouble with aspects of respecting women, cheating issues, etc. I think that whole concept is a problem that would only be delt with if a woman became president and it is not something to shrug off. Not everyone will get that, and that's fine, but I see it as a mass problem in general, across the world. Your bikini bar situation is just an aspect of the greater issue which is obviously what those protesters are trying to address. Doesn't sound like they're doing a good job, and I think you really have to pick your battles with this issue because it's a cultural thing and far larger than a bikini bar across the street from Sean Davis. My mohwak is down, just so you know. I'm just expressing the other side.<hr></blockquote>


Cool point. Even if I was a female I know for a fact that I would agree that "sex sells". Men are pigs, and are pervs deep down inside. Women can of course be anything they want to be, and I personally don't look at women as only sexual object, I do know they are people with brains and everything in a similar nature to myself (I was raised by all females). But to me, if a woman knows how guys are, and how easily predictable we are, it's a smart woman that uses those gifts to her advantage. That doesn't mean you are selling shy your morals or values, it just means you realize how "the game" is played and you use it to your advantage. I don't go to strip clubs often, maybe once a year on a bachelor party or something, or to remind myself what a different naked woman looks like other than my lady lol. Whenever i'm there are I see these women playing these sucker guys like a fine violin, I laugh and say "Take everything they got ladies". It's similar to having a waiter that knows how to play "the game" for good tips. That waiter would never kiss your read end and pretend what you have to say is funny or interesting out of the environment where they can make silly money off you by doing just that. But the smart server knows how things work, and will get tipped accoringly due to their behavior.

The same thing works for any kind of entertainer, especially when that entertainer is a scantily clad beautiful woman and there are dumb horned up guys all around. To me it's not objectification, to me it's just how life is: Guys are dumb and like looking at hot girls, hot girls notice this and take advantage of us for that and take tons of our cash. If anything, in my opinion, people should be making a point that MEN are being taken advantage of, and not women being objectified.
 
C

CowTown

New member
Geez, my mohawk is starting to go into convulsions. Just kidding.

First of all, yes sex sells. And why is that? Yes guys can be "pigs and pervs deep down", and why is that? It's all cultivated from our very own families, generations, society and world wide media. Just because something like this *is* doesn't make it a good thing, a moral thing, or a trivial thing. Many things exist that are not good or positive on the whole, as you mentioned earlier (baby seals, rainforest...), and that is not a reason to not do something about it or not start to help and make a difference. I see why you don't get it from my side, that's to be expected. I see how you think just because "the game" exists, then why not play it. It's easier that way because you see no harm in the game and you like the game. It's on an issue for you like the seals may be. I would much prefer people in general, guys especially, not to "play the game". That is a choice, to play or not to play, for women and men. It certainly was not a woman who started the game in the first place. Okay, so the game exists, it's real. I think to each is own (really), and these woman playing the game have far deeper issues that I believe would be helpful for the greater good if they were resolved. I believe a woman with deep rooted personal issues that entice them to strut their stuff in front of men, for money, for a hug, for feeling beautiful, for feeling important and superior should be focusing their time on building their own self image. They would feel much more respect and superiority at the end of the day if they realized how much more powerful they could have without showing their bodies. It would be a revolution of sorts, if all women focused on a different way to get men's uninterupted attention with their clothes on. As for the guys in this equation, they'll never stop playing the game as long as there is a game to be played. Who can change the rules of the game over time? Your very own families, yourself and parenting of the next generation. You are and do the things you do because of how you were raised, but once you become an adult you are responsible for who you become.

And no, guys in this equation are *not* being taken advantage of. That's truly ridiculous. If they ARE being taken advantage of because as you say "guys are dumb", then again it's back to ourselves to become more aware of humankind and get yourself out of ignorant bliss, it's our upbringing and our families and our society as a whole that need to *help and teach* guys to become less "dumb" in this regard.

I guess I'll stop here. Mohawk remained down that whole time. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0">
 
C

CowTown

New member
Geez, my mohawk is starting to go into convulsions. Just kidding.

First of all, yes sex sells. And why is that? Yes guys can be "pigs and pervs deep down", and why is that? It's all cultivated from our very own families, generations, society and world wide media. Just because something like this *is* doesn't make it a good thing, a moral thing, or a trivial thing. Many things exist that are not good or positive on the whole, as you mentioned earlier (baby seals, rainforest...), and that is not a reason to not do something about it or not start to help and make a difference. I see why you don't get it from my side, that's to be expected. I see how you think just because "the game" exists, then why not play it. It's easier that way because you see no harm in the game and you like the game. It's on an issue for you like the seals may be. I would much prefer people in general, guys especially, not to "play the game". That is a choice, to play or not to play, for women and men. It certainly was not a woman who started the game in the first place. Okay, so the game exists, it's real. I think to each is own (really), and these woman playing the game have far deeper issues that I believe would be helpful for the greater good if they were resolved. I believe a woman with deep rooted personal issues that entice them to strut their stuff in front of men, for money, for a hug, for feeling beautiful, for feeling important and superior should be focusing their time on building their own self image. They would feel much more respect and superiority at the end of the day if they realized how much more powerful they could have without showing their bodies. It would be a revolution of sorts, if all women focused on a different way to get men's uninterupted attention with their clothes on. As for the guys in this equation, they'll never stop playing the game as long as there is a game to be played. Who can change the rules of the game over time? Your very own families, yourself and parenting of the next generation. You are and do the things you do because of how you were raised, but once you become an adult you are responsible for who you become.

And no, guys in this equation are *not* being taken advantage of. That's truly ridiculous. If they ARE being taken advantage of because as you say "guys are dumb", then again it's back to ourselves to become more aware of humankind and get yourself out of ignorant bliss, it's our upbringing and our families and our society as a whole that need to *help and teach* guys to become less "dumb" in this regard.

I guess I'll stop here. Mohawk remained down that whole time. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0">
 
F

Faust

New member
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>MyNewfy</b></i><br>Geez, my mohawk is starting to go into convulsions. Just kidding.



First of all, yes sex sells. And why is that? Yes guys can be "pigs and pervs deep down", and why is that? It's all cultivated from our very own families, generations, society and world wide media. Just because something like this *is* doesn't make it a good thing, a moral thing, or a trivial thing. Many things exist that are not good or positive on the whole, as you mentioned earlier (baby seals, rainforest...), and that is not a reason to not do something about it or not start to help and make a difference. I see why you don't get it from my side, that's to be expected. I see how you think just because "the game" exists, then why not play it. It's easier that way because you see no harm in the game and you like the game. It's on an issue for you like the seals may be. I would much prefer people in general, guys especially, not to "play the game". That is a choice, to play or not to play, for women and men. It certainly was not a woman who started the game in the first place. Okay, so the game exists, it's real. I think to each is own (really), and these woman playing the game have far deeper issues that I believe would be helpful for the greater good if they were resolved. I believe a woman with deep rooted personal issues that entice them to strut their stuff in front of men, for money, for a hug, for feeling beautiful, for feeling important and superior should be focusing their time on building their own self image. They would feel much more respect and superiority at the end of the day if they realized how much more powerful they could have without showing their bodies. It would be a revolution of sorts, if all women focused on a different way to get men's uninterupted attention with their clothes on. As for the guys in this equation, they'll never stop playing the game as long as there is a game to be played. Who can change the rules of the game over time? Your very own families, yourself and parenting of the next generation. You are and do the things you do because of how you were raised, but once you become an adult you are responsible for who you become.



And no, guys in this equation are *not* being taken advantage of. That's truly ridiculous. If they ARE being taken advantage of because as you say "guys are dumb", then again it's back to ourselves to become more aware of humankind and get yourself out of ignorant bliss, it's our upbringing and our families and our society as a whole that need to *help and teach* guys to become less "dumb" in this regard.



I guess I'll stop here. Mohawk remained down that whole time. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0"><hr></blockquote>


Well it goes back ALL the way to our very first attempts at communal living when we were very early human beings. The very nature of how men and women are made in every single way, play off our strengths and weaknesses. The very nature of what attracts us to each other is based on what each of us can provide to each other on a different level. Men are physically attracted to women, women are physically attracted to men. Do you find it just as objectionizing for women to go to a chip and dales male review and act like their male equivalents, all frothing at the mouth grabbing guys on their toned butts and stuffing dollar bills down their G strings? Is that empowering in your opinion for women, or is it just the same thing? Depending on that answer alone, that will help discern what bias you might hold in this discussion. To me it's like trying to change something as fundamental as gravity, I just don't think it will happen unless we fundamentally alter our DNA for us to act differently. It's the same reason why guys gravitate towards violent sports, because we have a desire for violent conflict, and sports is the safe and legal way for us to channel that desire in a cathartic means. Guys like sports, beer, and women as our primary desires. Humanity has invented many avenues for us to pursue those interests in. If you can combine those three things together and offer it to guys, it's like the holy grail of guyness...And yes it has already been done at places like hooters.


I personally think the whole concept of monogomous marriage is something that's by and large a fairy tale, but I abide by the rule and i'm a "good guy". Even though I think deep down inside (and many other researchers do as well) that men were made to be polygomous. And i'll give you a great reason why from a biological diversity perspective. ONE of the sexes had to be this way, regardless who it was. In order for the human gene pool to become more diverse and have less chance of mutation, it was in the best interest for one gender to have the "roaming eye", and spread early human DNA around to other clans, to ensure all clans survival, genetic diversity, and much less chance of mutation. That trait has never left us, and probably will never leave us. That doesn't mean all guys have to act on it. I'm personally a very good guy and I don't cheat, but I would be lying if I said that the temptation hasn't been there many, many times.

THAT is what i'm also refering to as "the game", not just the whole socio sexual aspect of what takes place in strip clubs. Women are made a certain way (granted with outside influences to mold each of us like parenting etc, but im speaking strictly genetically), and guys are made a certain way. Sure there are very slight exceptions to these examples, but in large, that's how it is. To totally change everything about us, when it comes to interaction between men and women, we would have to be totally reencoded DNA wise, not to mention have several million years of human history thrown out the window.


To me it's one of those things where you can either fight it and just spin your wheels due to the futility of it all, or realize how things are, understand why they are that way, and go forward based on that. Discussion is a good thing, communication brinsg us together, but just like an extreme christian and an atheist trying to find common ground, I don't think it's possible if only one party in the discussion feels that we are the way we are due in large part to how we are made, and the other doesn't feel that way, or feels we can change that aspect of us.
 
F

Faust

New member
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>MyNewfy</b></i><br>Geez, my mohawk is starting to go into convulsions. Just kidding.



First of all, yes sex sells. And why is that? Yes guys can be "pigs and pervs deep down", and why is that? It's all cultivated from our very own families, generations, society and world wide media. Just because something like this *is* doesn't make it a good thing, a moral thing, or a trivial thing. Many things exist that are not good or positive on the whole, as you mentioned earlier (baby seals, rainforest...), and that is not a reason to not do something about it or not start to help and make a difference. I see why you don't get it from my side, that's to be expected. I see how you think just because "the game" exists, then why not play it. It's easier that way because you see no harm in the game and you like the game. It's on an issue for you like the seals may be. I would much prefer people in general, guys especially, not to "play the game". That is a choice, to play or not to play, for women and men. It certainly was not a woman who started the game in the first place. Okay, so the game exists, it's real. I think to each is own (really), and these woman playing the game have far deeper issues that I believe would be helpful for the greater good if they were resolved. I believe a woman with deep rooted personal issues that entice them to strut their stuff in front of men, for money, for a hug, for feeling beautiful, for feeling important and superior should be focusing their time on building their own self image. They would feel much more respect and superiority at the end of the day if they realized how much more powerful they could have without showing their bodies. It would be a revolution of sorts, if all women focused on a different way to get men's uninterupted attention with their clothes on. As for the guys in this equation, they'll never stop playing the game as long as there is a game to be played. Who can change the rules of the game over time? Your very own families, yourself and parenting of the next generation. You are and do the things you do because of how you were raised, but once you become an adult you are responsible for who you become.



And no, guys in this equation are *not* being taken advantage of. That's truly ridiculous. If they ARE being taken advantage of because as you say "guys are dumb", then again it's back to ourselves to become more aware of humankind and get yourself out of ignorant bliss, it's our upbringing and our families and our society as a whole that need to *help and teach* guys to become less "dumb" in this regard.



I guess I'll stop here. Mohawk remained down that whole time. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0"><hr></blockquote>


Well it goes back ALL the way to our very first attempts at communal living when we were very early human beings. The very nature of how men and women are made in every single way, play off our strengths and weaknesses. The very nature of what attracts us to each other is based on what each of us can provide to each other on a different level. Men are physically attracted to women, women are physically attracted to men. Do you find it just as objectionizing for women to go to a chip and dales male review and act like their male equivalents, all frothing at the mouth grabbing guys on their toned butts and stuffing dollar bills down their G strings? Is that empowering in your opinion for women, or is it just the same thing? Depending on that answer alone, that will help discern what bias you might hold in this discussion. To me it's like trying to change something as fundamental as gravity, I just don't think it will happen unless we fundamentally alter our DNA for us to act differently. It's the same reason why guys gravitate towards violent sports, because we have a desire for violent conflict, and sports is the safe and legal way for us to channel that desire in a cathartic means. Guys like sports, beer, and women as our primary desires. Humanity has invented many avenues for us to pursue those interests in. If you can combine those three things together and offer it to guys, it's like the holy grail of guyness...And yes it has already been done at places like hooters.


I personally think the whole concept of monogomous marriage is something that's by and large a fairy tale, but I abide by the rule and i'm a "good guy". Even though I think deep down inside (and many other researchers do as well) that men were made to be polygomous. And i'll give you a great reason why from a biological diversity perspective. ONE of the sexes had to be this way, regardless who it was. In order for the human gene pool to become more diverse and have less chance of mutation, it was in the best interest for one gender to have the "roaming eye", and spread early human DNA around to other clans, to ensure all clans survival, genetic diversity, and much less chance of mutation. That trait has never left us, and probably will never leave us. That doesn't mean all guys have to act on it. I'm personally a very good guy and I don't cheat, but I would be lying if I said that the temptation hasn't been there many, many times.

THAT is what i'm also refering to as "the game", not just the whole socio sexual aspect of what takes place in strip clubs. Women are made a certain way (granted with outside influences to mold each of us like parenting etc, but im speaking strictly genetically), and guys are made a certain way. Sure there are very slight exceptions to these examples, but in large, that's how it is. To totally change everything about us, when it comes to interaction between men and women, we would have to be totally reencoded DNA wise, not to mention have several million years of human history thrown out the window.


To me it's one of those things where you can either fight it and just spin your wheels due to the futility of it all, or realize how things are, understand why they are that way, and go forward based on that. Discussion is a good thing, communication brinsg us together, but just like an extreme christian and an atheist trying to find common ground, I don't think it's possible if only one party in the discussion feels that we are the way we are due in large part to how we are made, and the other doesn't feel that way, or feels we can change that aspect of us.
 
C

CowTown

New member
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>SeanDavis</b></i><br><blockquote>Quote
<hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>MyNewfy</b></i>
<blockquote>Quote

<hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>SeanDavis</b></i>


I don't go to strip clubs often, maybe once a year on a bachelor party or something, or to remind myself what a different naked woman looks like other than my lady lol. <hr></blockquote>



One more point to make that I have an opinion about is, who started the idea of having strippers/and or prostitutes at a party which celebrates someone about to get married? Sure wasn't a woman. I think bachelor parties have become something entirely different than what is should be. What woman would conjure up the idea to have their finances enjoy naked women, prostitues, and all, to celebrate the fact that they're going be married, that they love eachother, that want to spend the rest of their lives togethr? I think if a guy is that excited about "the last chance" to see other women or be with another woman, then what the heck are they doing geting married? Having a stripper/sex bachelor party to me is such a disrespectful thing to do if you're about to get married. No any which way you try and turn things around, is it respecting and appreciating the new wife and husband. And eventhough friends of the guys who are getting married say, "oh bachelor parties are really just for the friends anyways - not really for the groom to be, then that becomes a story of friends disrespecting the marriage their friend is about to experience. There's no respect on any level, for anyone. I don't get it. Mind you, after about 2 weeks of dating my husband I heard him say that the bachelor party he always imagined for himself was a group of his friends getting together for a weekend trip off roading in the middle of nowhere. That's when my eyes really started to light up! Someone who didn't believe in "the last chance" idea.
 
C

CowTown

New member
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>SeanDavis</b></i><br><blockquote>Quote
<hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>MyNewfy</b></i>
<blockquote>Quote

<hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>SeanDavis</b></i>


I don't go to strip clubs often, maybe once a year on a bachelor party or something, or to remind myself what a different naked woman looks like other than my lady lol. <hr></blockquote>



One more point to make that I have an opinion about is, who started the idea of having strippers/and or prostitutes at a party which celebrates someone about to get married? Sure wasn't a woman. I think bachelor parties have become something entirely different than what is should be. What woman would conjure up the idea to have their finances enjoy naked women, prostitues, and all, to celebrate the fact that they're going be married, that they love eachother, that want to spend the rest of their lives togethr? I think if a guy is that excited about "the last chance" to see other women or be with another woman, then what the heck are they doing geting married? Having a stripper/sex bachelor party to me is such a disrespectful thing to do if you're about to get married. No any which way you try and turn things around, is it respecting and appreciating the new wife and husband. And eventhough friends of the guys who are getting married say, "oh bachelor parties are really just for the friends anyways - not really for the groom to be, then that becomes a story of friends disrespecting the marriage their friend is about to experience. There's no respect on any level, for anyone. I don't get it. Mind you, after about 2 weeks of dating my husband I heard him say that the bachelor party he always imagined for himself was a group of his friends getting together for a weekend trip off roading in the middle of nowhere. That's when my eyes really started to light up! Someone who didn't believe in "the last chance" idea.
 
F

Faust

New member
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>MyNewfy</b></i><br><blockquote>Quote
<hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>SeanDavis</b></i>
<blockquote>Quote

<hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>MyNewfy</b></i>

<blockquote>Quote



<hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>SeanDavis</b></i>





I don't go to strip clubs often, maybe once a year on a bachelor party or something, or to remind myself what a different naked woman looks like other than my lady lol. <hr></blockquote>







One more point to make that I have an opinion about is, who started the idea of having strippers/and or prostitutes at a party which celebrates someone about to get married? Sure wasn't a woman. I think bachelor parties have become something entirely different than what is should be. What woman would conjure up the idea to have their finances enjoy naked women, prostitues, and all, to celebrate the fact that they're going be married, that they love eachother, that want to spend the rest of their lives togethr? I think if a guy is that excited about "the last chance" to see other women or be with another woman, then what the heck are they doing geting married? Having a stripper/sex bachelor party to me is such a disrespectful thing to do if you're about to get married. No any which way you try and turn things around, is it respecting and appreciating the new wife and husband. And eventhough friends of the guys who are getting married say, "oh bachelor parties are really just for the friends anyways - not really for the groom to be, then that becomes a story of friends disrespecting the marriage their friend is about to experience. There's no respect on any level, for anyone. I don't get it. Mind you, after about 2 weeks of dating my husband I heard him say that the bachelor party he always imagined for himself was a group of his friends getting together for a weekend trip off roading in the middle of nowhere. That's when my eyes really started to light up! Someone who didn't believe in "the last chance" idea.<hr></blockquote>


That goes back to what I said earlier. Men were made to be polygomous, and marriage is an institution of monogomy. Guys do the bachelor party thing as their "last chance to look at something you won't ever be able to have again", which is another woman. That doesnt mean guys will cheat, but it's nice to have "one last look". That doesnt mean we don't love her, we do, but it's like being reminded of what other food is on the meny when you are agreeing to a life of eating roast beef every day of your life, for what should be the rest of your life (I agree with death due us part). I've been to enough strip places and have other means to look at naked ladies, so i doubt ill have a bachelor party that deals with that, but most other guys do. The key is to have an understanding woman who isn't jealous and has a high self value, so you can have other normal outlets to quench any of those ugly desires that might raise their heads.
 
F

Faust

New member
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>MyNewfy</b></i><br><blockquote>Quote
<hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>SeanDavis</b></i>
<blockquote>Quote

<hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>MyNewfy</b></i>

<blockquote>Quote



<hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>SeanDavis</b></i>





I don't go to strip clubs often, maybe once a year on a bachelor party or something, or to remind myself what a different naked woman looks like other than my lady lol. <hr></blockquote>







One more point to make that I have an opinion about is, who started the idea of having strippers/and or prostitutes at a party which celebrates someone about to get married? Sure wasn't a woman. I think bachelor parties have become something entirely different than what is should be. What woman would conjure up the idea to have their finances enjoy naked women, prostitues, and all, to celebrate the fact that they're going be married, that they love eachother, that want to spend the rest of their lives togethr? I think if a guy is that excited about "the last chance" to see other women or be with another woman, then what the heck are they doing geting married? Having a stripper/sex bachelor party to me is such a disrespectful thing to do if you're about to get married. No any which way you try and turn things around, is it respecting and appreciating the new wife and husband. And eventhough friends of the guys who are getting married say, "oh bachelor parties are really just for the friends anyways - not really for the groom to be, then that becomes a story of friends disrespecting the marriage their friend is about to experience. There's no respect on any level, for anyone. I don't get it. Mind you, after about 2 weeks of dating my husband I heard him say that the bachelor party he always imagined for himself was a group of his friends getting together for a weekend trip off roading in the middle of nowhere. That's when my eyes really started to light up! Someone who didn't believe in "the last chance" idea.<hr></blockquote>


That goes back to what I said earlier. Men were made to be polygomous, and marriage is an institution of monogomy. Guys do the bachelor party thing as their "last chance to look at something you won't ever be able to have again", which is another woman. That doesnt mean guys will cheat, but it's nice to have "one last look". That doesnt mean we don't love her, we do, but it's like being reminded of what other food is on the meny when you are agreeing to a life of eating roast beef every day of your life, for what should be the rest of your life (I agree with death due us part). I've been to enough strip places and have other means to look at naked ladies, so i doubt ill have a bachelor party that deals with that, but most other guys do. The key is to have an understanding woman who isn't jealous and has a high self value, so you can have other normal outlets to quench any of those ugly desires that might raise their heads.
 
C

CowTown

New member
Let's see.... I don't think men are bad or anything like that, please understand that first. I completely understand that for our human race one of the sexes needed to be able to spread their oats. That's fine. I also get that because of the original need and desire to multiply that monogomous relationships for guys is a tough thing to do. I also get that physically attraction goes both ways and IS natural and great and needed, it's a chemical reaction inside of us. I love seeing a hot guy just like anyone. I'm not saying or taking some stand on women's right, although it may sound that way. I think the men strippers are objectifying themselves just as much as women do. It's also not that I think stripping is a horrific thing or the worst thing in the world and needs to stop altogether, although it may sound that way. I have a lot of deep rooted issues with men's disrespect towards women, obviously, (not that all men are this way, and not that I hate men - understand that!), and I have been for years and years trying to wrap my mind around this concept. I'm not against sex, physically attraction, or whatever, I just have underlying issues with the outcome of objectification. I guess that's what it comes down to for me. It's very difficult for me to explain exactly, but the point needs to be made that I'm not some women's rights extremist. Not at all. I just see things that I think contribute to cheating and disrespect on both sides, men and women, and I think it's just glossed over as a whole. I don't know. If we're on the cheating issue now.....see this is a broad topic <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0">, but I don't like it when either a woman or man cheats and then tries to say sorry, feels regret afterwards, wants forgivenees. This is a HUGE sign to me of someone being irrisponsible to the tenth degree and for some reason that's okay. When it comes to cheating we can be as irrisposible as we want and we'll just get a slap on our hands. Meanwhile this could be effecting children who observe and we all grow up to think, well it's okay I guess cause so many people do it, marriages aren't truly meant to even exist (and I did hear about those studies too, fascinating), etc. As adults we make choices. All choices have consequences, good and bad. The second someone decides to cheat, they are at the same time deciding that their relationship is not important enough, but no one sees it that way. Saying Oh I understand why someone cheats, well, I say, why choose to be irrisponsible - just break up and do whatever you choose then. Why make a decision to hurt someone else when you could just as easily set yourself free and the other person free too. I think cheating is one of the more or less accepted effects of a continuously perpetuated sex sells society. It's like a snow ball.

This is a very deep, convoluted, complex topic to get around, I guess because there are two sides to everything. Now, I'm getting confused with too many thoughts. I need to take a breather. I'll write tomorrow. I've become scatter brained! Don't want to say anything that I don't mean and I hope I haven't already done that. Phew...
 
C

CowTown

New member
Let's see.... I don't think men are bad or anything like that, please understand that first. I completely understand that for our human race one of the sexes needed to be able to spread their oats. That's fine. I also get that because of the original need and desire to multiply that monogomous relationships for guys is a tough thing to do. I also get that physically attraction goes both ways and IS natural and great and needed, it's a chemical reaction inside of us. I love seeing a hot guy just like anyone. I'm not saying or taking some stand on women's right, although it may sound that way. I think the men strippers are objectifying themselves just as much as women do. It's also not that I think stripping is a horrific thing or the worst thing in the world and needs to stop altogether, although it may sound that way. I have a lot of deep rooted issues with men's disrespect towards women, obviously, (not that all men are this way, and not that I hate men - understand that!), and I have been for years and years trying to wrap my mind around this concept. I'm not against sex, physically attraction, or whatever, I just have underlying issues with the outcome of objectification. I guess that's what it comes down to for me. It's very difficult for me to explain exactly, but the point needs to be made that I'm not some women's rights extremist. Not at all. I just see things that I think contribute to cheating and disrespect on both sides, men and women, and I think it's just glossed over as a whole. I don't know. If we're on the cheating issue now.....see this is a broad topic <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0">, but I don't like it when either a woman or man cheats and then tries to say sorry, feels regret afterwards, wants forgivenees. This is a HUGE sign to me of someone being irrisponsible to the tenth degree and for some reason that's okay. When it comes to cheating we can be as irrisposible as we want and we'll just get a slap on our hands. Meanwhile this could be effecting children who observe and we all grow up to think, well it's okay I guess cause so many people do it, marriages aren't truly meant to even exist (and I did hear about those studies too, fascinating), etc. As adults we make choices. All choices have consequences, good and bad. The second someone decides to cheat, they are at the same time deciding that their relationship is not important enough, but no one sees it that way. Saying Oh I understand why someone cheats, well, I say, why choose to be irrisponsible - just break up and do whatever you choose then. Why make a decision to hurt someone else when you could just as easily set yourself free and the other person free too. I think cheating is one of the more or less accepted effects of a continuously perpetuated sex sells society. It's like a snow ball.

This is a very deep, convoluted, complex topic to get around, I guess because there are two sides to everything. Now, I'm getting confused with too many thoughts. I need to take a breather. I'll write tomorrow. I've become scatter brained! Don't want to say anything that I don't mean and I hope I haven't already done that. Phew...
 
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